Consciousness Live! with Michael Rodriguez (S1 E10)

0:00 today's very special guest Michael Rodriguez so Michael for those who don't know you can you tell us a little bit about who you are oh you do well you certainly need is a microwave and a painter I'm an artist and I'm a colleague of doers of Hawaii Community College and I teach studio art in the communities Department I'm a segment primary identities that studio artists okay so I know that your your work has been labeled or associated with called

0:33 Abstract Expressionism yeah well we're not literally speaking the other come on the abstract so you know okay so how would you characterize our my work I mixed it in like the idea of abstraction but also that you know a picture of something a representation where process process in terms of how I make the work and maybe also process being pictured process processes so it's not in a

1:18 [Music] cooler approach you know much more distanced approach yes your work is characterized that way online so that's interesting

1:51 oh really yeah your best no really don't know yeah I mean it's definitely like because I'm you know men were to be lost it very much influenced by the color field painting yes or even top art color choices popular culture but I do like the open in the quality of abstraction yes so ultimately the abstraction if they're not illustrations anyway directly so so when you look that's

2:29 something I want so just to see let's see if this can work right here so start with this one so when we're looking at a piece of your work like this one right here this isn't a depiction of any particular seating we don't have anything in mind when you make these sorts of things no I usually have a hemisphere mine and I definitely have a process and one in terms of repetition of certain sequences let's say but it's primarily a kind of intuitive process so that

3:03 results in this kind of like this notion of like organic geometry that's I mean this one I thought was silly but you know I always kind of negate that through using different types of materials I mean I'm not living in the city yes but it's primarily a kind of intuitive process decisions

3:43 spontaneously or you know it's very connected the very geometric and regular those there's no how do you divide the canvas are you serious there's some free thought yeah I mean I know you said it's very intuitive so I'm wondering anything how did you think of it before yeah I mean I definitely kind of working it flat like there's two things one I mean a lot of the way they're kind of very flat kind of we're operating on the picture plane in maybe you know you're

4:18 dividing the rectangle up into quadrants or square in quadrants so it's definitely a kind of formal flat geometric abstraction going on but there's also areas the painting looks like a real illusion of depth so you have these two different things happening this very flat surface formal quality of the painting but then also other areas that have this real illusion of space and depth so there's a kind of tension there between two things some things are sitting flat on the surface you know and some things are really a

4:54 surface it does that solution in space so I try to create this the tension between two different ways of geometric abstraction that also the illusion of space and how those two kind of compete and compete in yeah and kind of you know kind of like multiple reference points you know so here people keep looking a lot of painting a lot of art you might recognize oh this is kind of like color field qualities quality to Mission abstraction limited on suspect or no quality and there's a

5:28 solution of course floating in space that is countered by these very flat areas that are flopped very much on the surface so yeah I like that [Music] so how did you discover this that the cells are the horrors that is here is your primary motive how did you come by that yeah well like a lot of things just through working so I was using different materials always played with ways of applying the paint I poured it out I've sprayed it on

6:04 I scraped it on screen thought being on glass and female metal I've squeezed paint out of icing cake icing decorators I used all kinds of things was interested in kind of like Don Keaton the approaches to painting you know outside of like a Russian traditional ways of playing pale always try to have this kind of tool being the kind of mediator between me and the canvas and something between my hand and the canvas

6:37 so about using these sponges he's painting sponges and I'm sorry that he's twirled it almost encompass it made this kind of really nice feel which was very much there's simple certain forms circular form but also we leave it like a bubble and then I also thinking thought of this difference you know kind of like think about earlier Jim extractions always based on kind of right angle geometry or and this was more like I like the circular form as a

7:13 means of creating geometry but it's just kind of like oh look at that was not a very satisfying to repeat that they repeat that motion very mechanically really just accidentally yeah I think that's weighing most artists tend to stumble on things through the process of working right right sure it's like when

7:47 you're writing there's a fool yeah you know I would think so as you're working try things out and something's worked something so something kind of accident let's so this you mustn't really like it because I mean how many of these kinds of pieces have you done this – yeah yeah between works on paper and canvases haven't really spoke to you or something about it let's draw to you really yeah I don't know the multiple readings you

8:19 know he could be just send all these different multiple readings they could be so many different things but in the end of this is kind of circular form it you know I tend to resist making direct knowledge ease about new think about the nature of universe it's not frothiness either you know or even even something you know just seemed like there was a lot of connotations comfortable most of them maybe there was another company with it's fine and there's also something I like this attention between

8:52 something that's almost superficial and trite you know like you know but I mean I like this tension between something that can be rather superficial but it also can be kind of intense so yeah yeah that's really interesting so I mean because I know when I first saw your pieces I've had thought they're amazing but I didn't really understand how you do such perfect bugs right so now I've

9:28 seen think there's I mostly do it one motion and that's yeah and they're not perfect either yeah and closer you know just like nature perturbations or things don't always come out as its supposed to right in me so I'm not interested in perfection otherwise I'm just a computer and just anything so I'm interested in like mistakes or many mistakes look irregularities imperfection illness you know I mean in that sense I do there is

10:00 my hand ball because you know if I wanted to I couldn't just use pencils so I'm not interested and also to like again I could make like ten billion so not interested in trying to rub the pee scientific illustration we're definitely like tend in by painting their kind of hemmed in by that

10:35 hemmed in by abstraction so I like I like I like that connotation I'm definitely committed to like open-ended quality of abstraction in a viewer and getting out of the big ring to it no matter whether the viewer is a late person let's say or you know pretty erudition they're gonna get something different out of it yes yes looking at ask necks actually who is the human painted floors for the artist primarily or for ultimately for myself right uh

11:12 peanuts I'm the first person it needs to be satisfied because I mean ultimately the painting it really does come out of desire like a real strong desire to manifest this image in a way of a satisfying to me that makes sense it's like it's definitely really big desire and I like this idea of reacting a lot of people most people kind of create this experience apart and I want to give that experience but I don't want to give it in a way that is not I mean I'm

11:47 interested in like creating sophisticated works now that can mean a lot of things is there anything you could look at the most scroll scratched almost unskilled tech work base considered very sophisticated ways but I mean I mean it seemed like there were working for on many levels I mean some people accept get one thing out of it and another audiences so I mean I don't really think about my audience so much

12:21 we like you know the audience in other artists in the art world to see it one way but I'd like I would like to I'm not interested in like alienating the lay person although that doesn't mean that you know it seems like I guess the reason why I was asking the questions it seems like some hard you have to have gone to art school to appreciate not only not to look at it and you look I

12:54 mean I understand that it's part of a conversation right it's responding to like people hit in the last thirty years so that you know the way I think it may be Impressionism Expressionism table kind of started a reaction to realism in Kosovo it's right then you get to the you know you help people like you shopping those guys and so those two understand where they're coming from Gavin understands well as my not in the art world view you're working on kind of context or context for sure but you don't get our sting just you know

13:28 artists have no engaging anything in his heart that's all about its to Schmucker t our language you know that's strictly a theory you know even political social question I think most artists are you know it's a lot of art that has absolutely nothing to do they I'm a visual satisfying pleasure not strictly needed theory ideas I mean we shot and notions of beauty he was clearly trying to shop in

14:10 a working you know this has been tremendous but he was also I mean he was really really great artist who did some visually museum is it holy Serena bizarre sudden sexualities Dennis yes I forget me the fun little right now crunches that but I mean you know if you were to show that will work and Sayla some you know young grad student did this piece that's funny so yeah I mean the shop was and also be

14:47 shocked shocked and look what he introduced like you know sexual identity gender identity language we introduced all these ideas of the art are still really witness nah you know it's all to be the Rose French yeah and you know gender fluidity introducing language and art so you think the Trump still very much I mean you can't even you would be impossible

15:23 to extract as so your own influence I know that you say very influenced by Andy Warhol yeah you're influenced by a top-ranked heart and Johnson Paul I mean that's so much following obviously probably use large for most painters but certainly at my heart is matter of fact approach tiny things anytime you know he was very philosophy you know he was

15:56 spending the philosophy and he was heavy into politics got a separate way of manifesting itself through his political cartoons not in his artwork and you know he he never took the bait that a lot of abstract expressionist book so he's little of me well like he would you know you never title those things like my mother low elegy to the Spanish room okay you know let me look at this big gestural abstract thing and he can hear the Hamptons and I'm asking what does this

16:30 have to do with the suspension revolution absolutely nothing though I think that I am and so it's a little pretentious like you know and so I liked his matter-of-factness unit I would never ever write renumber walk very literal but they that they were really physically visually the [Music] surface was done the great care and they were really they were meant to be looked at we sounds obviously in person yeah but

17:07 he was also a number like art for art's sake right or not I mean I guess I don't know much about obviously your dance for that from what I read he wanted to get away from images all together yeah just have the heart to be speak for itself that's right those sounds a bit weird when you've noticed that a lot of monochrome black on black different shades of that's really so that's it's hard to see an influence like that on your so must be muscle topically or is approach actual aesthetic but what was it that you think it's influencing I

17:40 guess is matter-of-factness about it you know like his are the reason I don't one of my things you know super string theory number two and also with these sources yeah this is physical services yeah really and even you know like all of all of the things I do my paintings I can't usually

18:15 show you so I'm not really trying to be a virtuoso in that sense and not regulate demonstrate its incredible paintings as much coming to this image through its neutral editing knowing and of course it's an intuitive process and that's what every to a decision it's always like decision making process which is pretty obvious on the search of the canvas right so and as ideally time this aren't like oh

18:52 not that all art is the same or like you know a work of art has some kind of consciousness about juxtaposed works of art from any time period in a big sense he would never think it's not anywhere you know he was a little bit of a you know he was a little tongue-in-cheek to knowing he would be realized that he was kind of like almost for something a kind of impossibility I mean he did like cartoon fighting a lot of parts yes goobers magazine called

19:26 PETA magazine so he left this journal so he and he did all about you know the ones the most popular like kind of look at Cuba's he was a major proponent some political work too but he was a major proponent of abstraction and he would say that he was like the first artisan began it's not abstract artists and that's you know most artists 20th century look it's a long journey and you can almost see the cubism creeping him

19:59 yeah these landscapes that he did they can become more and more geometric mean you could almost attract a Mondrian or my early landscape to his later compositions with primary colors just simple geometry but Reinhardt was always about going to be a variation figure you know he was really great I only have one lecture results gave us Wow from where it's actually gonna

20:33 coordinate stuff even school of painting sculpture first one property studying school of painting sculpture Wow okay and so what about Andy Warhol you say you're like him as well which seems hard we adjust the position had obtained the next we have a platonic today I guess pop art was supposed to be a reaction to abstraction isn't it sometime yeah looks pretty much like like yeah it was like it's cool that's calculated you know like you know and

21:20 we're all Oakley and great I mean like you know and the actual expressionist me [Music] yeah you know openly embraced pop culture as love your celebrity instant desire for money and soon you know so the me openly embrace these things very intensely in a radical way too so how does that influence

21:51 I mean wave looks I hear America I don't miss a direct correlation aesthetically again other than maybe introducing elements of the mechanically so scream the move his hands and it may be some of my some of the colors they were later the pop imagery perhaps but ya know it also just as a funny I don't know he was an artist it I think a lot of personal integrity in other words he was very courageous in who he was in terms of

22:26 being a gay man is running Soviet people were transgender opening embracing further marketing communities that were really marginalized in the forefront long before and also he was a very intense artist Amin you know there's early car crash paintings electric chairs is powerful yeah you know the people the people we'd all have paint it you know Jackie oh [Music] there's something trash and the speaker was that so he just had an incredible

23:00 visual she just what to do you know work holds up ya know ya felt like more obvious about coming outside the other people focus on the I assume candle for Marilyn yeah and also so many artists today they think that because they're you know selling out because they're so interested like their commercial position that there being any Warhol and if you're getting what private parties

23:32 he loves is early those early films is where he did the screen shot you know look people in camera on me you know he's worth penis was such a precursor to so many things so this was really challenging this time and you know so a lot of artists these days like the pop artists and their son those we're gonna think they're anymore but I don't think they are getting all these street artists you know this is doing like rich

24:10 hashed over pop graphics he's another like you really can't remove him from the culture yeah you know what's your differences what's your hip to them you know you really most kind of I mean obviously everyone knows that it was really big and creating a scene yeah right pretty cool keep bringing people together right yeah and kind of a passive way also in a very like certain ways but very passive assertive

24:45 simultaneously and you know there's really some campaigning it's got a number he painted all those by hand yeah animals before use to us so sorry before right so you really got a wanted is that yes you know you know that painting I love the painting of it it's a painting of a pepper pot liquor soup in the labels worn off and you can really see some but you ever really want to do that yeah so I'm really like a cynical like

25:18 exactly ah the banking right people make a nuisance for me very earnest sincere way his mother did be famous it wasn't like yeah yeah that's interests that's a good party hats and it was a real connection exactly like I said those paintings were anybody mend and those done yeah he was and he's one of those artists that manages to be very popular

26:02 outside but also yeah that's a hard team so so what can I ask you what you think about content the contemporary art world is it still thriving what's going on well it's definitely because the art world yeah so you know there's that part of it right there's the kind of the

26:41 world of options which of galleries you know not just because beyond the commodification of art because the kind of market index as an investment and as soon as an investment in a real literal way not just you know buying something and hoping it becomes worth money it's like buying and storing and flipping in it I mean it's it's it's perfectly meters the rest of the economy right so the article is always bigger it's large but I don't see the positive

27:16 about the article today is that kind of everything goes yeah I mean Billy's figuring really like there's a lot of really great figurative art happening right now in this condition there's still a lot of abstraction parties a lot of this it's just kind of like almost everything goes and it seemed like trends come and go almost faster so minimal of minimalism and post minimalism and all these movements but

28:01 now the seems like everything is happening and you can support forces do they do then what they're doing is not in favor now be in favor 10 years from now that's a good I think you know I mean like yes kind of understand this stick with what you do chasing certainly I would say right now there's a kind of – it's coming out of like almost a cell Club tradition placing it in our world

28:41 so there's a lot of work that it's kind of anti fabrication and it's using various revenue tier evolves it's very [Music] which you know it's an innocent work that likes it as a lot of religion figurative work happening right now so do you think that there are artists that are active now who have the kind of impact that people that write in Parkton or all to chomp out of that is that level of impact possibility god I think so but it's hard

29:14 to really see in real time right I mean certainly this I mean we know those certain parts already so someone like watching your coming is hugely successful hugely popular right considers itself definitely a child in the world whether or not 50 years anybody you know someone like Jeff Koons who you know I would say is maybe there's a radical sculpture made out there again kind of be shopping and Warhol tradition now he's so perfectly

29:49 years it's corporate collector–base [Music] just so I think those early works of it's well we'll be working out but obvious later work so I'm not gonna I'm not gonna sit here in Maine the artist said I think you're gonna be yeah figures I mean certain figures you know

30:26 I think Cindy Sherman's in my opinion probably Richard Prince pick a generation of artists or I think they'll still be difficult to say yeah it's always hard to do it in your own your own time when a marker yeah and your will become so tightly around you know so much part about hard right part about dealers Thanks

30:59 like what was the big crazy I'll turn right now that's kind of how I know that's a trend I mean I be guard outside I call it it's definitely establish itself and I think look all artists riffing on his great part any animals from but I think the outsider art world I think it's very popular for one reason because I think people trust the motivations of the artist yes they don't always trust the motivations you know some young hotshot resoluteness right they don't trust the motivations

31:32 you know when you walked in gallery you see something that was completely being aided to you and you see a price tag – six meters yeah it's like that's like but they trust the motivations of saw partners outside apartments it's usually you know there's a lot of great outsider I need only artist in knows I mean I think in the Metropolitan but right now there's a collection of that's at first

32:07 I think it's somebody's collection start over that show but you know there's a lot of great work I mean the American folk artists that's it so yeah it's people trusted motivations or what's up motivations in the sense of they're making art for the right reasons yeah yeah do a little you to do is look we

32:41 love the obsess you know but you know there's something to that that's real so you know someone like Henry Darger saw our narrative works [Music] these dolls they're like super hyper you

33:46 know so do you think that there's anything undiscovered in the world of Arts that hasn't been done yet or is it just you there's any things that have

34:18 been done like it's not even in style so you know look I mean your son my daughter they had experiences we don't have they're being raised differ world were raised in so the art doesn't manifest itself this generation isn't it this is different not so I just ruined your home you know the nice thing sometimes you feel like oh this new yeah but something will come up there will be some mind-blowing thing in the future you know because each

34:58 generation just has such a different set of experiences and I can't help it be [Music] someone yeah yeah okay this seems like a dream you talked earlier about experimenting with all these different techniques you know different ways of applying paint it seems like probably a lot of artists so yeah it's whatever you think what what could be done I haven't been done and so I mean you know I was looking at some separate they're like oh this is like rough though using a different color palette yeah it's a lot

35:31 of that kind of stuff that's a very mind if I'm not saying about two that I like yeah yeah that's a minor variation on something which is that way yeah well I do think the art always kind of comes out of lard yes artists other influences you know all artists that I know speak of art history comes from but uh I never say that it's going to something no no no it is the perspective canvases what about

36:08 that virtual stuff are you content very large for me I'm into it I'll do it better some terrific working done virtually video wasn't really trained for a while but there's still some strip wouldn't work because you know not only the medium matters in the end anything can work in the end it's really ultimately about this convergence of form content if it works it works you know I mean I think you know drama technology you know look you know for a

36:41 while like when color printing was there he became more accessible and agree with printing giant yeah but they weren't any better because they some are good some are terrible right in the art video ready for a while like every artist whether a painter or sculptor and we send a little video on the side you know every gallery I'd like a video you know you know this I don't think the media matters I refuse an engagement a discussion of hierarchy of mediums Wow you know better

37:15 I mean I think it's so pain is around the don't trust a soccer game they don't trust it well I don't think it's real or whatever love on seeing discussions yeah the question of what real artists yeah that's nice conversation yeah I agree yeah what does the question of what a real artist is not that silly that's probably a little less silly but probably pretty silly who's a job writing an artist is someone's making interesting you know there's one thing

37:53 yeah I don't think my mother liked coming from my own background in philosophy it was difficult call myself a philosopher because nice and grandiose type really great philosopher my son Ronald sure Descartes but then I can be just thankful so like except foster someone who has a PhD in philosophy and is doing philosophy so in that sense yeah I'm happy to call myself a philosopher but they're still I think a

38:26 lot of people still want to use terms like artist or philosopher and very narrow way I mean it's like you know great extraordinary talent there's some on it like you said obsessed from driven yeah anyway that's you know it's not just a hobby or something like that that's not something that's your danger well is that like you know just a ploy to save everybody some artists and I think we do we try to say there's room for creativity all along right there's room for the nice room floor I mean even

39:00 this blossom imagine you know you might have a notion and unlike signage don't approve it but you certainly have to make a case for yeah right but that might start with a kind of almost intuitive hunch or Ness something just kind of but didn't then you go do the hard work manifesting that so but I think yeah the idea that I don't think everybody's an artist makes anything creative thinking Wilkin mindedness you know exercising one's intuition so there's a little bit

39:40 of a little bit of question especially given like you do further than do you think art can be taught can you keep someone to be an artist or there's something that they you can point them in the direction that you could influence them I mean but you know I do think that look I mean I know some teaches college students – is like if they're gonna be an artist giving artists ya know if I can help them if I can turn the lot of things they don't know if I can show the artists they don't know it really sparked their interest or cinema you know that's great but I I do think that the most part

40:15 you're not gonna make artists know you can probably unmake them crush their their dreams and visions but I don't think like and I've had students that said listen never listen to your posters just do what you do yeah don't don't don't take it don't listen go do what you do and just don't listen and I tell my students – the most important thing for them I think is actually learning

40:47 because your technique is all important but that's something they're gonna get from working the studio who's working you can teach them techniques but that's not right exactly Bluff set some stuff that looks really technical can be really lifeless not ready to look at I mean I think something musicians are like they're like technically the soleus yeah you know and there's I mean there's a lot of

41:19 artists you don't have the greatest technical skills but X yeah yeah tons of illustrators illustration right right that's so that's interesting you know my mom's an artist said burned a lot harder she left it self-taught artists today and she really adamantly refused to ever be tops you know because she hadn't believed her I would I'm interested in sort of a reaction to this

41:52 maybe so she herb he was if you studying with someone than you paint like that and right along there yeah right so that her idea was that to really be true to herself she had to do it herself yeah if anytime she did something that someone else look here's the technique or think about these colors then it was there are you were making it's a perfectly smart rational way to approach it I mean art schools art schools not willing to make make you artist and for

42:30 a while there was like a real like it's like something like grad school the grad school art yeah singing who's involve ideas or this modernist ideas or a dandy politics and you know it names a lot of like really silly work that was coming the theory you know it was before of the art yeah you know and also a lot of a lot of sort of the best interest and

43:04 having used to do what they do yeah right so the hierarchy right at your light appropriation and are you students of doing it I think your mother's approach was actually probably really smart you know and she was probably probably work for you well yeah for her good I mean the downside of it that just kinda never what she did well as a career right there's the career part of it I mean certainly you know almost every major college

43:41 you know women around the pocket pastor let's just again you know part not on the cultural arts you know but it doesn't make you any better artists grad school or even investors right but you know from up to myself united believe I didn't really have any bottles or example for artists that I knew that also study art with me to meet other artists is really really terrific

44:16 intellectual professors who introduced me the artists are finally in college or high school about you know I just you know I have I have some great artists who introduced me to my feet is that changed you are interested in art though I was interested in or belated draw well I mean I could draw know a lot of the history of art did you ever picture art

44:50 as a career or not I was older you know I didn't even like having life I didn't have any role I didn't know artists really so you know I think that first look at college I made in education they cannot be a teacher or something but commercial art but I was a slight I was never really good at it because I was a good so you know I finally had a

45:29 professor who said look I'm just do what you want to do just make you're not even though you know you know I lost advice I mean okay like everything yeah so what did your parents think when you send me money better Arsenal I thirst

46:01 he's dead yeah I know basically I'm happy you know and I was going to my local you know State College so I'm very supportive parents and I was lucky to at a very young age be able to implement work anyway I mean solely the kid actually do something so I was I was doing stuff so I was very fortunate very so why did you decide to move to New

46:36 York that's it for our tour for others oh really yeah I mean Miami is a much bigger art scene it used to be but I just felt like I was early mid 20s I've been able to show the rest of my original success as a lot of great artists down there and I just really wanted to move to New York [Music] part of the continuum just like any

47:23 other areas of Judah's oral history and I just wanted to see firsthand to speak a little bit but you know I'm going to move to New York and just I just literally completely speak myself not just contemporaries and the quality shows do you steal those shelves used a w-2 so you haven't lost that sense of

47:59 excitement about in the New York uh well I mean there is the city as a you know I've corporate super-expensive the flagship dehumanizing yes at overpriced madhouse you know where creative types are being marginalized because it cost of living is not part yes Brno but as far as is like you know being able to go to museums yes you know you just can't I needed them

48:45 you know ninety years I just stood on Lafayette Street two doors in the public theater that was 24 Wow and I live my mobster you know walk down the canal by your art supplies go to a lumberyard or it's true there's a let's all just war made chocolate shop you know super expensive restaurants and multi-million dollar condominiums and unless you've got a lot of money you're not going to be I mean I know there's a whole other scene way out Bushwick right Philadelphia

49:17 I'll maybe up Ridgewood Queens pretty soon me but it's just the city of become I mean city is great with cultural institutions right and a commercial gallery scene is still healthy but as far as like beyond the artists it has to make their away without support it's really good and you know I considered it very expensive material yeah it's just the same yeah people can give good loving this look

49:52 well if do you think that's I mean I mean I think I know your answer but do you think that's bad through you are the city I think makes a city kind of unlivable for a while so for instance in my neighborhood is all these beautiful luxury condominium buildings apartment complexes and you walk by and around a weeknight and there's no lights on we have the people a little annoying look at the apartments go for 10 million 15 million 20 million dollars and vision they're holding out to people in cash missing they don't even live there so

50:25 it's not making the community or anything my building you know the apartments that are parking rate your turnover is all time because they're paying well over three thousand dollars for tiny stupid oh yeah why are they gonna set right no so I think it's you know the city is becoming there's tons of empty storefronts everywhere you know listen for me like it my neighborhood which is still a nice neighborhood but all the yeah any luck with CBS McDonald's today they make branches yeah

51:03 you know insanely pretentious coffee shops I mean it's like it's fine but it's not good for me yeah exactly I mean and because you bring this sort of back full circle I know like in the 40s and with the abstract expressionism that's kind of up New York on the map that's a yeah city form and it doesn't I'm not sure if it's gonna make it it still is like this a Nature Center the center I still think again cultural

51:45 institutions is still really important blaming museums [Music] even smaller ones at the Museum for everything azeema the image sculptures center there's a lot of great institutions being smaller than participant I don't know you kind of need to make the case in the center yeah

52:21 because it's slated in a big global economy right art fairs rolling yeah exactly so yeah so I mean to again to ask you about your own work I know you have a big emphasis on viewing in person right that you want people to see to miss out on something if they don't see it in person right why well I'm very much just an idea of like kind of being present and conscious in the moment I think that's something I can do like reach you in present moment and to

52:56 really get one to pay attention of look so you know sometimes my materials are a little loose right so I use walking and I use this really super flat matte pants yeah so it's really meant to kind of physically seduce you I mean it's not an original idea but I do like this I like creating something that is really meant to be looked at and over and looked at over a period of time to itself up to something that's kind of open very open then you can just always

53:34 kind of like read into feet into so yeah I'm very much like and I like a little something that you just you know as much as I love Andy Warhol when you see the suit can you kind of see this right and you kind of move on right and I think I'm just right because have your stuff there's so much going on you always are drawn to some new elements or

54:07 amazing things and I like you know I like the fact that people see different things in the work I'm look to engage the viewer and I don't want to do it in a snarky I want to be very sincere way nah let's get back to someone like your if my writing partner who doesn't want any unconscious art nothing that's subtext runner for serene yes he did I don't agree with everything he says of

54:45 course but I mean I certainly admire you as a singular figure so you want people to appreciate the physicality of the work but also to be able to interact with it yeah yeah and if you me that that when I can combine this kind of this what I call looking as opposed to reading right so this like the kind of submission semiotic read read the work of art this is kind of like looking at nature anyway like but for me like going

55:20 to sing a great work of art that combines this kind of ravishing any brush you pleasure of beauty in the intellect simultaneously you have to use a very exciting experience right but I had this kind of work this is kind of intellectual or just intellectually stimulating experience but also this kind of like physically that to me is like so like what I'm Sergeant what's your painter our tongue speaking and not

56:00 go on but I mean that when you're intellectually engage through the people level but also just physically that's music very difficult to do some he's a great balance yeah do you like your art like look I mean no I know you made a mess like I do some people don't like a litter size yeah you know it was usually like an immediate feeling of gratification when I like something and then there's almost a counter immediate being really critical

56:33 loving it and pushing it away but then something to go by and I look at things that did years ago sir you know cuz you're always trying to push the work yeah right no we shouldn't challenge yourself and push it even if it might be in time so there's always this like which but I didn't learn a long time ago like I couldn't like fight okay I couldn't there was no point of rejecting myself yeah I mean you something I finished piece that I'm happy with visit

57:10 this immediate feeling of gratification but then I honest start rejecting it push forward for the next mess you know I'm not if it's East no I like to have like there's always like one foot into numb and hopefully one foot so you have to be like this I mean if you just cranking it out yeah they lose something there has to be some kind of tension in there it has to be something that you're not really quite sure if it'll work so you have to be inspired to create

57:44 repeats argue to have a schedule you're like I got paid today or anything yeah I don't really think about that spiration too much I don't think it inspired looking at heart but then to me like if you wait to be inspired I mean it's the longest thing using been too many time to make someone students and inspirations for amateurs ah you know really it's about this days you work if you like it Thursday's great students days aren't so great but I think I do like this kind of

58:16 like you know Joe a bunch panel get up in the morning go to work no it's like you know like I do like this let me get up I mean I do think a lot of artists identify with identify as work even if the adults to be of assistance orchestrating it's a large and a problem right I do think that your job it's it's a job but it certainly it is like it's work it's it's often physical yeah no meeting pinkness about this collective absolutely so the you know work is very

58:51 meticulous okay yes right here's something inspiring about being in this area very not so it's just we just work so you try to keep us get I try to teach I trying to keep through this together yeah how many hours you spend on one particular piece that's trying to say it could be 40 50 60 Wow

59:29 yeah but I said you know take a couple weeks this I mean depending on my schedule I mean I'm pretty pretty disciplined about what you're getting about framing your work I like for ending the work yeah I think it's that's about really nicely I like framing it you know color coordinating the framing I'm kind of you know it's not something that's super critical to the work but I do like Frank Frank paper you know I've made some

1:00:05 Frank's the canvases I like the framing the more of it and really you know paint the frames it sets them off really nicely so yeah but you know the course not framing it traditionally the frame is a window that you're looking through this kind of goes what I have them looked that idea of the abstract expressionist that then you use the whole campus no center right the whole thing you're standing there yeah and wouldn't frame it because they

1:00:39 don't like having inlets and they're getting away picture element the thing itself it wasn't a picture or anything you know so my approach to friending is not ruining any kind of concept above but you know friend you can also really set up as a little like if you're using like beautiful black wall framing yeah and you know the framing cost right I mean so there is something about friending that it reduces the kind of

1:01:12 almost rising commodity or commodification of the work right a lot of Frankie goes up right so you know artists who are doing pretty well and they start doing really really well suddenly like things are framed right because before I'm not going to spend it's expensive and you get a large being this framing beautiful-looking partners well if you're painting but if you're paying six figures I think that then Frank government says yeah exactly

1:01:46 so maybe frames it's a big thing that's addicting maybe not so much against attendees can be do I'm even though he could be a comment on the work of art if you just get free right yes no no it could be you know getting to be almost like a signifier of status and provocation what can also just be like it really yeah yeah but I know I don't think about framing internally deeper and I don't really resist idea of things

1:02:22 being decorative to I mean it just like emptiness is something that's decorative you know something is decorative you know you can take it great black work on paper by Emerson Richard Serra yeah it can be a very elegant despite all the heavy content right don't necessarily know I don't think about framing and being some people get

1:03:00 into this I just carry you know look I put like a huge gold super ornate frame frame like that's clearly now right right but if you do come or mutual framing it's not so much in fact of mediums much this kind of in setting it off so this frame you could be definitely began like a lot of frames right right okay so what are your future

1:03:35 directions are you looking well I was I was using a kind of ribbon in the work for a while like just ready to gift wrap me Ruben and stitching it into the canvas and I'm starting to play me arm now I'm using yarn and I'm stitching in yarn to the campus and I think for me to you know the the ribbon was really out of desire to create these kind of pinch stripes because I was having painted stripes so the ribbon became analogous to paint just years so I was like using

1:04:08 curling ribbon you know huh yeah pickets isn't any kind of curl so it had like these drips with curling ribbon and also the ribbon I just like the kind of like superficiality I'm sorter yeah you know and also this allusion to craft and I don't know so I liked and even my crappy museum gift you know and also frankly I don't know I don't even know if I ever really wanted to take the time to create any kind of more fleshed out idea behind it other

1:04:41 than just pure visual satisfaction satisfaction so I'm going to be using yarn more because the yarn is like fuzzy like he's like he got the mat while the seeking flat back pain matte velvet the floppy hang of it and any kind of fuzzy quality and I would usually the cheapest your honor I wouldn't use like so again it's something that's like I don't even think

1:05:24 I can explain it and I think to explain it would be kind of want to make it out just like all this heavy beading I like the idea of like stitching into the kings of the arm and using the ribbon and using it as analogous to what's happening with me so this is another [Music] I'll look someone else close so yarn ok well that's very yeah well beyond using ribbon for a while and then I've seen someone really

1:05:58 yeah yeah I'm doing a piece right now maybe even today they later like start using this you are so you paint the canvas person put the yarn in yeah yeah so you let me sew it in there you know I stitch it like wow so these are curated a hundred years from the house 1 has to retouch on this the middle our yes restores are you cheap this you are does this news and enjoy going through

1:06:47 the craft stores enough listen to huge industry right art yeah big business you know you want it's not hobby yeah that's not gonna distract me axiom it's fun to go there yes no like you know or you like the baking supplies I mean this thing was do straight really games but in all that there's certain meeting associated with

1:07:24 all these things where I'm not trying to do it it's not like an outside dealer woman kitchen yeah female crowd right it's just more like you Lana fuzziness yeah visually physically talk to it ah very cool but knowing that does have competitions right right yeah you can't avoid them but sometimes go in front all right doctor I don't want to keep you here forever and so I wonder you before

1:08:01 we go is there anything that hasn't come out there you want to talk about the answer can be not I will say the ex kindest thing I mean I know you usually introduce attribute other philosophers people studied smell you know I appreciate bringing artists onto its platform thank you I think that you know art

1:08:36 seems to be able to relate to some philosophy aesthetics and you know me so I know I don't see a big gap between all these our science our philosophy those types of things but a new thing art has a privilege right well that was a hard-fought victory though I mean I feel like it that wasn't no no now our again but I I

1:09:12 thank you for saying that but I do think that our consciousness our integrity that's the art has an expression of consciousness yeah so that's why I think that people that you shouldn't do it yeah yeah I mean I do spend a lot of time you know scientists and philosophers and they have they come out to brain development I think you're explain consciousness images these people yeah I think so death lead uh interested in kind of manifesting what I like what I like about is asserting the fact that making

1:09:50 art this is worth my time right it's a worthy pursuit right in a pursuit of trying to be rooted a moment to actually trying to expand one's own consciousness outside of commodification discourse just for its own sake I think it's a worthy pursuit I think it's the pursuit that needs to be more than ever asserted Ensley this is something that is worthy to do even if it doesn't you know tangible you know same certain time yes

1:10:40 meter or it's luck that insanity but I do want to resist it and I do think the active being for me being artists is like it's my resistance of corporate culture it's my resistance of value system has brought us insanity yes you know militarism American Empire war mongering you know all these things that were kind of prior to that have become just kind of normalize you know it so the way becoming an artist to me is kind of I mean I don't make political

1:11:14 art and I'm not trying to sit of just being an artist but for my personal it is resistance you know useless expensive products to unsuspecting people that's a whole little discussion right because you know let you know I do think the art could be subversive to you all right has a

1:11:47 subversive quality so you know and I think we all know too that you know the corporate sector will embrace part for their own reasons right but I don't think again our art artists should not be ashamed of making money and they should not be driven by some notion of purity like all I can't show them that because it is right you know I mean I think that's you know I think that's also I think you know most artists I know I've made tremendous sacrifice for

1:12:27 being as accomplished in their penis right it's kind of it's a real thing to like choose certainly didn't do it for the money no that is not there's money to be made and you know that's not that's that company owes comes and goes okay and that's what I mean think that's a great attitude purism of a certain sort of artists whose

1:13:01 you say doesn't want their pieces that sound Lord doesn't want to go spicy they're sort of great that's kind of silly right this is hard to me to be enjoyed if it's if the market will bear that I mean my mom's always well I'm not about this not to get too into my own stuff but she's always like art could be affordable you know I want to sell my her $50 there's so many rights like that fine that's great but at the same time that does that's not the only way to approach enterprise anything wrong with a six-figure tab that's art right looking for quality writing you know we do place monetary value yeah

1:13:37 so there's a reason money I mean sometimes the prices become so extreme genic shop like there's no no no money put it to show you how much like yes yes it's like it obviously that painting by you know an artist yeah showing you how much money is out there okay look there's some very it's kind of sad though when people buy an input in a

1:14:12 private collection there's really shop and supportive they realized the beginning of his career that they've been weren't buying it so we've been look at it and they want it they put a storage warehouse for safekeeping yeah definitely that party you know that's a big debate restrict music people who strictly visual identity and some people

1:14:49 find it offensive yeah there's something I can see why that could be somewhat offensive I mean and it isn't certainly other salty right you know because if your front you know suddenly you're selling things at six figures it's hard to maintain them yeah and it's left so suddenly you know the auction houses I mean it's it's too messy it's a messy messy thing yeah are usually the ones at least amount of power exactly yeah so look be an artist and you you know you find a market what you do there's making money doing what you love to do that's great

1:15:21 there's no shame in it I don't think I don't thank you that is so much to be separate from the rest of the world yeah it should be some kind of computers that's that's I think that's for non artists that's right they want everyone to be van Gogh yeah look at me like starving for Jang's eyeball it crazy do not have nice Portobello brother and then their pain

1:15:52 is linked to the day kids or you know it's not survive exactly Randy you know forgotten cinema it's hard to write poetry we know there's a lot of artists we do the lifetime right ourselves shows such

1:16:38 an engagement you can just like not anything but there is a certain element you're you're the commodity in a sense and so you have to sell yourself you have ready on the scene you try to be always honored will have a certain persona so I can see my people get burned out really quickly on that aspect yeah it's a national career ISM that can be a little draining at times you think that's ramped up lately yeah probably more than maybe the products just because you aren't seeing

1:17:10 so much bigger you know and there's so much money people realize how much money dopamine yeah that's so much money so mistake and you know in look look you have to engage the world know what you discover you engage the world if you choose not to engage to the RO that's not my field of pure artists paint it and then earns it immediately they'll never be discovered it'll not anyone should engage the world

1:17:54 there's a market for many people yeah [Music] yeah those are frailties and our superficial

1:18:31 [Music] exactly yes yeah it's gene though I mean I tendency philosophy is partly partially an art I mean that's you know not a visual art obviously it's person in art to its conceptual artists of Sciences yeah there's a lot of similarities between the yeah I think contemporary art world I mean outside of like some of the high-profile museums it's almost like a subculture they took the average public yeah I mean the general public is not engaged in every

1:19:03 part right none of the deep engagement philosophy right exactly you know maybe you stop the out of the street they probably couldn't make three look yeah look at the coming in three really awesome ninety-three all right you know yeah I mean I mean no I mean

1:21:03 [Music] you know this Ergon said cross or like you know get a sloppy but I promise you yeah yeah you know what do you need I'm like crazy we should be exact a cavity in the flames of my high waterfall and you know the clouds will have my comedy comedy visual appreciates

1:21:37 the solution one and over the course of the Christian subtext yeah it's like the subject of all time he was like so he's kind of crossed over yeah I know I wonder and I want to stop some people and that's a name for your living artists on everything okay yeah I mean better chance than you reliving philosophers you think so yeah

1:22:10 maybe I mean I think they might know they read makers and they watch even they might they might people think about chuckles you know maybe it's been experiments yeah so who are then let's end by asking who are three living heart aside every much enough that's really artists everyone should know well I think his name like friends yeah it's a good question

1:22:44 really artists everyone should yeah he's someone that's just so honest but our instance okay didn't nobody should know anything value like all you should know right you know we certainly Adrian Piper exhibition ever come on is there's a really intense show she's uh she's actually a philosophy professor Thomas and she's

1:23:18 she's PhD in philosophy but she deals with her own making hi practitioner aa race politics and a very intense location it's a register and I think that's you know she's someone doing who engages politics and race certainly personal position you know very she's something [Music] it's astrology work it's not fun yeah

1:23:56 alright you know but I think that you know if she does he see tourists going to museums I often wish I could like to stop a family and say let me explain because I think I'd be doing the way we can bring him into it you know I told you many times if you're going to be going to museum and you see a black cube it doesn't engage it doesn't mean you're not intelligent right to me you know I

1:24:28 can understand that there's a kind of almost all of this it's like it's like there's a kind of hostility right a lot of these and I didna dealer yeah and I can see let me go to modern and you're looking at a painting by contemporary artists you're like why that why is that here it's not obvious it's gonna happen unless you really engage that's not there because it's right it's not it's not there because you know it's there because it's saying something about

1:25:07 conditions now the condition of your partner and unless you're really wrapped into it you know right that's not that's not a measure of intelligence it's more measurable fewer engagement with the field right I feel I think a lot of people do feel there's kind of associate art intelligence they sit there and be able to pull something engaged by and they're not in time you're not getting depressed and that's not always the case and others like I mean I think it helps to be just kind of naturally

1:25:39 intellectually curious yeah you like books lon why is this what's happening in the work we can open itself up to a little bit but no I don't I you know for people to sort of what the artists wives I think but I think a lot of artists are hostile yeah there is a little bit they want to let you write they are yeah that's fun you know I don't think but I think you know very few artists engaging

1:26:21 I mean like I've done that taking surveys needs to do trying to be really it's clowns on a bike questions yeah then not the way it did they die I can't be kidding bit can be good it's not something right it's gonna be an expression of yourself but yeah taught me something that's right yeah yeah okay well thank you very much for

1:26:55 sitting other than a great conversation all right