Author: Richard Brown

SEP Entry on Higher-Order Theories Gets Worse

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I am currently very, very busy, and I am not just talking about my attempt to get the true secret ending in my NG+ play through of Black Myth: Wukong, or how many celestial ribbons I need to upgrade my gear 😉 But seriously things are pretty hectic for me all around. At LaGuardia I am teaching four classes in our short six week winter semester (General Psychology, Ethics and Moral Issues, Critical Thinking, and Introduction to Philosophy) and at New York University I am filling in as an adjunct for one semester teaching two undergraduate classes (Philosophical Applications of Cognitive Science and Minds and Machines). To top it off, I am teaching the Neuroscience and Philosophy of Consciousness class at the Graduate Center with Tony Ro. That is a lot, even for me! (LaGuardia’s spring semester starts in March so I’ll worry about that later!)…I am also working on a couple of papers, but that is pretty much going to have to wait until I am not teaching five days a week.

But even so, I just noticed (well I noticed a week or so ago but see above, I’ve been busy!) that there was an update to the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy entry on higher-order theories of consciousness and I had to make a couple of comments about it.

There is a lot I would complain about in this article in general, and I have long used it as an example of the way in which the introductory material on higher-order theories is misleading and confusing, but I will set that aside for now and focus on the part directly relating to my views about the higher-order theory, which I quote below.

Brown (2015) challenges the common basic assumption that HOT theory is even a relational theory at all in the way that many have interpreted it (i.e., as including two distinct mental states related to each other). Instead, HOT theory is better construed as a HOROR theory, that is, higher-order representation of a representation, regardless of whether or not the target mental state exists. In this sense, HOT theory is perhaps better understood as a non-relational theory.

I have a lot of problems with this paragraph! First, it cites my paper on this from 10 years ago but nothing that I have written on this topic since then! It is true that when I wrote the cited paper I had not worked out out my position in all of its details but I have done a lot of work since then trying to do so. But even in that early paper I do not challenge the basic assumption that the higher-order thought theory is even a relational theory.

What I do is to argue that the Traditional Higher-Order Thought theory, as it is usually talked abut, is ambiguous as between a relational (like Gennaro) and non-relational (like Rosenthal) version. Rosenthal’s theory is a Traditional non-relational HOT theory and Gennaro has a Traditional relational theory. My actual argument is that higher-order theories needs to be mixed non-traditional theories that incorporate relational and non-relational elements for different jobs, but that is another story altogether! I also reject the theoretical posit of higher-order thoughts. I do not think of the kind of higher-order representations I posit as ordinary folk-psychological thoughts that I could think on my own at will. That is the Rosenthal view and I have always found it to be a bit strange. But ok, these hairs can be split another day.

Gennaro continues saying,

…if the qualitative conscious experience always goes with the HOT (including in cases of misrepresentation noted in section 4), then it seems the first-order state plays no relevant role in the theory.

Gennaro means this to be objecting to the HOROR theory and its claim that the higher-order state is itself the phenomenally conscious state. Amusingly, Gennaro here fails to realize that Rosenthal’s own theory is a non-relational theory! So if the objection he raises is supposed to work against my view then it also works against Rosenthal’s.

He then cites Rosenthal’s objection to me without realizing that the way he has set things up that amounts to Rosenthal objecting to Rosenthal! More importantly, I respond directly to the points being made in my book, including to the quote that he uses. He says, “…Rosenthal (2022) points out that Brown’s modified view conflates

a state’s being qualitatively conscious with a necessary condition for qualitative consciousness…there’s rarely anything it’s like to be in a HO state, and HO states are almost never conscious….[i]t’s the first-order state that’s qualitatively conscious. (Rosenthal 2022: 251–252)

On my view Gennaro and Rosenthal are here trying to identifying phenomenal consciousness with state-consciousness, something which I argue in my book itself stands in need of an argument in support. Yes, the higher-order representation is a necessary condition for the first-order mental state to be state-conscious but I argue that state consciousness should be separated from phenomenal consciousness. A state is phenomenally conscious when there is something that it is like for the subject to be in that state. Rosenthal and Gennaro seem to agree implicitly with this. Rosenthal says that there is rarely anything that it is like to be in the relevant higher-order state and it is clear that he is intending this to mean that we are rarely aware of ourselves as being in the higher-order state (I.e. the higher-order state is not usually state-conscious).

I agree with all of that! But in order for this to count as an objection to my view it must be the case that there cannot be something that it is like for one when one is not aware of the state one is in. This amounts to the transitivity principle, (which I argue is the uniting feature of the Traditional higher-order approach) and I explicitly reject the transitivity principle!

In my book I give what I call my HORORibly simple argument (as a nod to Lycan’s original simple argument as follows.

1. A phenomenally conscious state is one which, when one is in that state, there is something that it is like for one to be in it.

2. The state that, when one is in that state, there is something that there is like for one to be in it, is the state of inner awareness.

3. Thus, the phenomenally conscious state is the state of inner awareness.

4. Inner awareness is a representation of one’s own mind.

Thus, a phenomenally conscious state is a representation of one’s own mind.

Put this way we can see that Rosenthal and I disagree about premise 2 and maybe premise 1 but I am not confusing or conflating any kind of necessary condition for any thing else. I am denying that what Rosenthal calls ‘qualitative consciousness’ (insert eye roll) is phenomenal consciousness. It is state-consciousness and they are not the same thing (though they are related).

Let me stress that I feel weird about being somewhat indignant about someone not reading my book or being unaware of my views. I don’t usually expect that anyone will have any familiarity with my work before criticizing my views! However, it does seem to me in this case (of writing an entry for the most widely read online encyclopedia of philosophy) it should have been done. As it is this article pretty badly misunderstands my position and makes no attempt to get it correct. I might be overly suspicious but one can’t help but take this somewhat personally. This entry was originally written by Peter Carruthers and has recently been taken over by Rocco Gennaro, which explains a lot.

I have previously reviewed Gennaro’s book and papers for NDPR and written on this blog about the way in which I think he misunderstands Rosenthal’s approach to higher-order theories. He responded to my post and I invited him to come on Consciousness Live! and have a a discussion with me but he declined (the offer still stands on my end). Gennaro was at one of my talks at Tucson and afterwards asked me a question that directly pertains to the complaint above and we talked about it over dinner. A less paranoid person might think that the pattern of citations suggests that he wrote it before my book came out and the review process took a long time. Perhaps; but the general theme of my work has been made clear to Gennaro for some time. He also definitely knows my email/how to contact me if he wanted to clarify some of my views! All I can say is that had I botched something this bad I would want to correct it immediately.

Ah well, as a humble community college teacher I am still sort-of honored to be mentioned at all in this prestigious scholarly source (and one assumes some editorial heavy-handedness was applied to get even that given how ridiculous all of this is). Maybe someday someone will update that entry to reflect the actual landscape of the debate about higher-order theories of consciousness. The only real question is whether that might get done before we get GTA 6, haha, I mean before the whole debate is empirically mooted!

Bence Nanay Live!

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Join me for the kickoff of Season 8 of the podcast and a discussion with Bence Nanay, Professor of Philosophy and BOF Research Professor (ZAPBOF), Centre for Philosophical Psychology, University of Antwerp and Senior Research Associate, Peterhouse, University of Cambridge, as we discuss themes fro his recent book Mental Imagery.

Andrei Buckareff Live!

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Join me for a discussion with Andrei Buckareff, Professor of Philosophy and Co-Director of the Cognitive Science Program at Marist University, as we discuss skateboarding, pantheism, and more! This episode was recorded live as part of LaGuardia Community College’s Undergraduate Philosophy Conference. The intro starts at 3 minutes in (sorry, it is live after all!)

Andei’s website: https://www.marist.edu/liberal-arts/faculty/andrei-buckareff

The Thankful

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Every once in a while I get an idea for a short story. Usually they pop in and out rather quickly and I just let them go but I recently decided to jot them down when they come. I don’t think I’m a great writer, and definitely not a great story teller, but it is fun to write badly in another genre. My first two attempts are below.

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Doug leaned his head around the doorframe calling out, “it’s time! George! Let’s go! I am starving over here!’

George called back, “I’m almost ready, just give me a minute!”

Doug began pacing back and forth, waiting for George to be ready. Typical George! He’s always lagging, Doug thought to himself as he paced back and forth.

“What time is dinner?” George came out, adjusting the belt on his pants. “I can wait to eat as much as I can! This belt may have to be loosened out by the end of the night”

George was patting his stomach with a big grin on his face. “You and me both!” Doug laughed back. They clapped each other on the back and headed out into the snowy night. Yes, it was the night of the big Annual Feast. This year there was a bountiful harvest and there would be a lot of food to eat. The entire community was gathering to celebrate and there was a lot to celebrate, even if times had been hard in other ways.

It had now been several generation since the wars of the 2030s. The Earth had become a massive battleground and all of the natural animal life on the planet had been largely decimated. The established world-wide food chain had been severely disrupted, with all of the factory farms being collateral damage in the Wars. People had survived on insects and what plants continued to grow until they had come to the Pact, which was now the organizing force of their society. The Pact had allowed Human Beings to survive the wars and now they were thriving. Why, tonight alone there would be a gathering of 10,000 hungry Humans coming to partake in The Feasting. It made George feel proud to be a part of this tradition.

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“I’ve got to log-off! The dinner ceremonies will be starting soon!’ Timothy was also buzzing because of the Feasting celebrations about to occur, but he was also nervous. He had just turned 19 and so he was one of the Guests of Honor at the Feast. There were hundreds of guests of honor at tonight’s feast, everyone who had just turned 19 would join him in being celebrated.

“I know you do son, and I just want you to know how proud I am of you” Andy, Timothy’s dad, was standing in front of his home in the virtual world.

“I know you are dad,” Timothey’s avatar looked sheepish and blushed. This was because Timothy, in the non-virtual environment was blushing and the VR suit he was in did a good job communicating those things to the Avatars in the virtual environment. It made being in the simulated world feel very real. It’ll be even real-er in an hour or two, Timothy thought to himself.

Timothy looked up at his dad and said “I can’t wait to see you, so we can all be together again!”

“Me too, son” Andy smiled and took his son’s virtual had. “The uploading isn’t as scary as you think it is and it happens really fast and then you’ll be here with me.”

“Dad!” Timothy rolled his eyes as he spoke. “I know, I know! We’ve been learning about this since 3rd grade! I just wish it were done already!”

“What’s the first thing you want to do?” His dad asked, trying to change the subject.

“I think I want to try a beer! Or maybe fried food!”

“yes!” Timothy’s dad replied, “I’ll make sure we have some on hand for you!”

Timothy smiled and the logged out of the virtual environment and back into the non-simulated world. “Wow, a beer and maybe some French Fries or Onion Rings?” Can you imagine? Since the Wars humans had one big Feast and then the leftovers until the next Feast. They had to grow the vegetables from scratch and prepare the meat. It was very important that they had enough to make it until the next Feasting Day. Timothy had been so busy with preparing for his big day that he had completely forgot to check on when the next Feating Day after today would be. The next group turning 19 would to be that far off.

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Timothy came out and ran into Fred who was also on the way to the dinner. “Hey there Timothy! Are you ready for this?”

“yeah, I ca’t wait” said Timothy “I just got done talking with my dad,” he went on excitedly, “and he says I can have a beer and some fried food when I get there!”

“Wow, that sounds great!” Fred said “I’ve been reading a lot about soda and I asked for Root Beer so we can have a beer together when we get there.” Fred was smiling, and Timothy thought he actually winked at him as he said ‘root beer’. That thought disappeared as they walked into the dinning hall and saw all of the tables and chairs arranged around the large Dias in the center with the seats for the Guests of Honor. He had been coming to the event his entire life, but today it was his turn to be the Guest of Honor! Fred had already made his way up to the seats for the guests of Honor and Timothy joined him there, feeling really nervous now. He had made sure to go to the bathroom earlier and had not eaten beforehand as instructed, but he hoped he did not have any embarrassing accidents on stage. He would never live that down!

A hush had fallen over the room and the Ceremony began. “Ladies and Gentleman, I give you tonight’s Guests of Honor!” boomed a voice over the loudspeaker. The entire room burst into applause. Everyone in the room, most of them under 19 years of age, was smiling and clapping. Then the lights dimmed and people took their seats. Leader Martha came out. Leader Martha was one of the Elders, one of the council of learned people who ran the society. Leader Martha was in her mid-forties.

“Who is ready to be Thankful?” she asked. Everyone raised their hand. “Very good. Yes, very good indeed” she cooed. “As is our custom there will be plenty of activities while we prepare dinner, so please stand and salute our Guests of Honor. Dinner will be served in 8 hours time”

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The crowed burst not applause and the Guests of Honor stood at attention as the Dias they were on was lowered below to the Kill Room. As the Guests were lowered the crowed started happily chatting and talking amongst themselves. “Nervous?” asked Timothy?

“Not really,” replied Fred, “I hear it is really quick”

The Dias for the Guests of Honor had reached the bottom floor and they were lead to their final room. They marched in single file and then things happened very quickly. There was first a blinding light which disoriented them, followed quickly by an electrical zap which rendered them unconscious. As this was happening a mechanical arm swept up the Guests of Honor and slit their throat as they were hung upside down to bleed out. Once this was done a conveyor line took the bodies to the next room where the head was severed from the body and sent for brain scanning. The rest of the body was sent for processing and would be the main course at tonight’s Feast, with bits and pieces reserved for other uses. The chef’s were waiting for the machine to process the meat into useable sections and then they would begin cooking.

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George and Doug came racing back into the dinning hall. “I want leg meat!” shouted Doug.

“And I want a rib!” shouted George.

“Kids, there is enough for everyone so just be patient,” replied Leader Martha as she sliced a hunk of Fred’s body. They had stuffed him with a delicious spiced stuffing and Leader Martha was really looking forward to digging in. This was the way things had been done for Martha’s whole life, and her ancestors before. In the Wars the animals had been destroyed and this was the only way that they could still have meat. Some select few were not eaten but the rest were butchered at 19 and then uploaded to the digital world where they could live out their lives for as long as they wanted. Martha planned to upload once she died of natural causes but for now she also wanted some ribs!

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Timothy opend his eyes and looked around. There was his dad and his older brother smiling at him. “You made it!” shouted Brandon, Timothy’s older brother. “It’s about time! We were waiting all day long!”

‘What happened? All I remember is this bright light and now I am here”

“Me too” said someone to his left. Timothy looked over to see his friend Amanda and a little further down Fred and the rest of the Guests of Honor.

“Wow, so we really made it?” asked Timothy incredulously.

“You sure did!”

Timothy hugged his dad and was surprised to find himself crying.

“I’m so proud of you! Now c’mon, there’ someone I want you to meet!” Andy had put his arm around his oldest son and was smiling from ear-to-ear.

“What do you mean, someone to meet?” asked Timothy as he was drying his eyes, “I already know everyone here from Meatspace.”

“Well, not everyone,” started Brandon, “you see, I have a son and many people here do as well”

Timothy was looking right at Brandon but wasn’t sure he had heard him right.

“A son? How is that possible?”

Andy was smiling again and looking at Brandon “tell him, he can know now”

“What they don’t exactly tell you is that you are allowed to raise two infants in Meatspace but after that they upload them and process the bodies for specialties.”

“What?!? So, I have a nephew? Where is he? I can’t wait to meet him!!”

“Great! Let’s go, we’re late for dinner! They are simulating the exact meal of the Feast, with a couple special additions,” Andy added looking at Timothy before continuing, “and I don’t want to miss out on that stuffing!”

“Me either!” yelled Fred sprinting off towards the house in the distance.

Brown on Non-Human Animals and their Treatment

Richard Brown Leave a comment

I am coming up on the 20th anniversary of starting this blog. I started blogging over at Brain in 2007 and then started this blog shortly afterwards, so in has been about 19 years of blogging at this point. Over that time I have written very little about my views on animals and in particular my vegetarianism/veganism. This has always been hard for me to argue about with a calm and cool head. You think I get agitated talking abut Kripke’s skeptical argument against meaning? Wait until you see someone say that they can’t stop eating meat because it “tastes too good” or that they “feel bad” for me because I have never tasted a steak. There is just something too gross about trying to justify the way we treat animals all so that we can enjoy a certain taste or experience.

I had also over the years lost many friends over this and had even gotten into a drunken argument over vegetarianism with some graduate students that led me to transfer schools (I’ll spare the details). Then at the new school I transferred to I soon got into another drunken argument about this where I brazenly declared that eating meat was at least as bad as some forms of sexual assault, which caused quite some stir (I stand by this statement to this day). I went home that night and tried to write a short paper justifying my claim. That paper, “The Case against Carnivores” is, as far as I know, lost to time. I remember writing it in a fit of rage and if I had had a blog back then it most certainly would have been an epic blog post. As it is I think I put it on my early website and found out someone was using it in a class they were teaching. Anyway that would have probably been 2005 or so. It would be very interesting to see that paper but sadly we may never know what the case against carnivores was!

Then when I started writing this blog I wrote a couple of early blogposts on this (the first two below) but then had a really negative interaction with a commenter. That is when I realized that I needed to chill on this particular issue until I could learn to engage in a reasonable way. I don’t think I am all the way there yet, to be honest, but over the years I have tried to become a less annoying vegan who lives by way of setting an example through action rather than debate. As veganism started to become somewhat mainstream things seemed to be getting better but I still see the same tendencies that have always haunted this debate. I am trying to reach the point where I can at least engage in some arguments in this space without loosing my mind but it continues to be a work in progress.

Below are the eight posts I have written that are relevant to this issue, and I am working on one about animals in research.